Lioness ([info]elisem) wrote,
@ 2007-04-03 20:56:00
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The Dishwasher As Dysfunctional Family Member
[[info]tnh and [info]pnh say I have to post this.]

So, you know, there's something that really bugs me about dishwashers, and that's the complicated pattern of codependency some people build around some dishwashers. I call it "The Dishwasher As Dysfunctional Family Member." It goes like this:

Everybody knows that the dishwasher doesn't actually wash dishes. We say it does, but it really doesn't. We have to take the dishes and rinse them first, and look at them to make sure that whatever's on there isn't too much for the dishwasher to handle. And let's face it, for some dishwashers at some points, ANYTHING is too much for them to handle. So we do their work for them, or at least half of it. But do we tell the truth about it? Do we say we actually washed the dishes, and that the dishwasher is actually really only rinsing them? Do we call it a dishrinser? Not to its face, we don't. And mostly not to other family members' faces, either, because one or more of them are usually dishwasher apologists.

Being a dishwasher apologist is one of those clear, unambiguous forms of codependency. A dishwasher apologist will look at you if you complain about the "pre-rinsing" (which is really pretty darn close to washing, when you come right down to it, if not actually the thing itself) that you have to do in order to maintain the fiction that the dishwasher actually washes them -- a dishwasher apologist, I say, will look at you if you say that, and they'll say in pitying tolerant tones that you're being silly, that everybody knows you have to rinse things before you put them in the dishwasher, in order to make sure that the dishwasher can actually wash them.

There is something very, very wrong with that picture. But to a dishwasher apologist, such a statement is hurtful, unfeeling, and smacks of treason. Or something like that, anyway.

Don't even get me started on the amount of checking up a person has to do with that kind of dishwasher, too. It's not enough to "pre-rinse." No, a person still has to do a scrupulous look-over when accepting the dishes the dishwasher has ostensibly washed, the dishes that are allegedly all clean and ready to put away now. Why? Because the dishwasher screws up regularly. It isn't enough to do half of its job -- or more -- before arranging them in careful configurations, giving the machine soap, and then patting its ON button and telling it to go for it, Champ. No, you have to take up each glass, each dish, each fork, and make sure there isn't some artistic impasto of soap and odd bits of food you missed while you were "pre-rinsing." There's always something, too; you pick it up, and say "Eeeuw! THAT'S not clean!" and set it aside for -- yep, for another round of "pre-rinsing."

I usually just wash the dang thing myself, but I get the feeling the dishwasher apologists tut-tut at that. Why? Hell if I know. Maybe they're afraid it will hurt the machine's feelings if I actually call it on the fact that it's not doing its nominal job. This is the point where I am given to calling it a dish-rinser, an sobriquet that in turn earns me the adjective "unreasonable."

But it's true. Machines like this particular one really don't do what we say they do. We just tiptoe around doing most of their work before the fact, and then checking up on them later and catching their mistakes and making them right. But do we get the credit for washing the dishes? No, we do not. Of course not. That would be silly. And unreasonable.

The dishwasher as dysfunctional family member. You know it, and I know it. But heaven help us if we say it out loud.


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[info]pgdudda
2007-04-04 02:26 am UTC (link)
I'd be tempted to propose that dishashing machines are approximately as effective as husbands at washing dishes. You have to feed them, maintain them, praise them for poorly-done work, and then quietly re-do anything egregiously undone. There seems to be something about soapy water that negates the ability of many husbands to determine whether a dish is still greasy or if it is ready to be dried. And don't get me started on the fact that you have to put the clean dishes away after the ostensible dish-cleaning is done.

Can you tell that although I'm male, my SO is the "husband" in our relationship? And where's that co-spouse I keep asking for Xmas from Santa...? ;-)

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[info]redbird
2007-04-04 02:38 am UTC (link)
I think it's time for you and Juan to divorce your dishwasher.

(Mine is competent for most things; as you note, it doesn't put the dishes away, and there are certain tasks it shouldn't be trusted with, like the good knives. But overall, it has been a great contributor to our domestic tranquility.)

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[info]therealjae
2007-04-04 02:39 am UTC (link)
This post is a thing of beauty.

-J

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LOL!
[info]mizzlaurajean
2007-04-04 02:44 am UTC (link)
I have never yet lived with a dishwasher and I'm getting the feeling from this that maybe thats really okay. :)

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Mine is a really good dishwasher
[info]dragonet2
2007-04-04 03:25 am UTC (link)
And we had no problems with it (and we still don't if we are the ones that load it). It has a lot of good features including a water temperature booster which sterilizes the dishes in the rinse.

The problem is that we had a artist friend come to live with us after he cat-sat while we were in the Uk for the workdcon. He has a certain amount of hypocondria and OCD. And HE TOTALLY WASHES THE DISHES AND THEN PUTS THEM IN THE DISHWASHER AND RUNS IT AGAIN. It pisses me off. It pisses Jim off. Because it is wasting water.

He's moving out soon. We're kind of looking forward to it.

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[info]irismoonlight
2007-04-04 03:25 am UTC (link)
You say what desperately needs to be said, and I applaud your courage and strength for doing so. *smile*

I live without one. I also live alone. These two facts appear to go together. Two people "need" a dishwasher; one has a harder time "justifying" the cost for a single person. Which is just peachy. I have four cats; I don't need another personality telling me I need to feed, pet and attend to it just so.

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[info]micheinnz
2007-04-05 06:46 am UTC (link)
Pfh, we have three people in our household and no dishwasher.

Doing the dishes once a day takes less than ten minutes. If one has the kind of dysfunctional dishrinser that Elise speaks of, the pre-rinsing and post-checking takes longer than that.

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as a ps
[info]dragonet2
2007-04-04 03:27 am UTC (link)
The diswasher is MY FAVORITE APPLIANCE EVAH. I lived for a long time in a house who's plumbing would have never accommodated a dishwasher, it barely accommodated washing dishes (poor engineering, poor floor plan).

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[info]casacorona
2007-04-04 03:47 am UTC (link)
Also big dishwasher fans here. If your dishwasher makes you do the dishes before you put them in, get a new dishwasher. All I do is scrape off large chunks.

I truly believe that getting a dishwasher saved my marriage, many many years ago. We both hate doing dishes. It's the best appliance ever.

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[info]amanita_d
2007-04-04 09:39 am UTC (link)
hear hear - no prerinsing in my house either!

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[info]annafdd
2007-04-04 10:41 am UTC (link)
Totally with this too. Divorce your dishwasher AND get it to pay alimony. The only thing my old dishwasher was so-so about was congealed egg yellow, but even then I didn't stoop to pre-rinse.

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[info]cabell
2007-04-04 03:48 am UTC (link)
Ehehehehe.

It's so true. What the hell use is a "dishwasher" that can't handle ANYTHING that I dirtied up baking?

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[info]saoba
2007-04-04 04:44 am UTC (link)
Appliance apologists will also lean over while doing floors, pick up the bit of whatever-it-is the Hoover is not picking up, examine it and then put it back down and make a couple of more passes. Rather like the annoying aunt who sits and watches her child bang another in the head with a truck and simply keeps saying 'No, sweetie, please' as if the thirty-leventh repetion will miraculously take hold in Sweetie's brain.

AA: Why are you not picking that up? What is that anyway?

AA looks at item, determines it to be an unremarkable bit of fuzz. Puts it down. Passes Hoover over it again.

AA: How about now? Maybe now? It's just fuzz. Why aren't you pickig it up?

Hoover: Sound and fury, sadly not signifying actual suction.

I had a roomie who would go three or four rounds of this. I suggested she just throw the damn fuzz in the trash, since she had it in her hand already.

"Oh, I don't need to do that. The vacuum will pick it up once it's not ground into the carpet so much."

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[info]annafdd
2007-04-04 10:52 am UTC (link)
Ooooh I had a vacuum like that. Come to think of it, it was indeed a Hoover.

My I am happily married to a Dyson. You just have to be careful around the cat because it would suck it up whole.

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[info]dichroic
2007-04-04 07:25 am UTC (link)
My in-laws have an actual dishwasher - they tested it and it worked just fine without prerinsing. Apparently the hardest part was breaking themselves of the behavior.

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[info]ailbhe
2007-04-04 08:56 am UTC (link)
Our dishwasher uses 9 litres of water, for a 30-minute cycle, and does not require pre-rinsing. I can't be arsed pre-rinsing. Some stuff we leave to soak in our squalid sink so it's not set like concrete by the time the dishwasher runs - weetabix, notably, and porridge saucepans - but nothing gets rinsed off.

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[info]papersky
2007-04-04 11:34 am UTC (link)
Whenever I am in someone else's house with a dishwasher I am reminded that really I don't mind washing dishes, and come home all motivated to wash dishes for months thereafter.

It's like when I read about other people's partners not pulling their share of housework and I am motivated to feel extremely positive and appreciative about [info]rysmiel.

Reading this post has had the same effect. Ugh, dishwashers, what dysfunctional family members!

But you guys need one because you have insufficient kitchen counter space for dirty dishes to wait. When I lived in Harrow we had a tiny little kitchen with hardly any counter space and we built a shelf. And we looked at out excellent level shelf and agreed "This isn't a shelf to put washing up on," and then proceeded to put everything else on that shelf to make room for the dishes waiting to be washed on what counter-space there was.

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[info]elisem
2007-04-04 11:49 am UTC (link)
I'm likely to get a lot more motivated about doing regular small dishwashing sessions, because it's a pain-management technique (again) for me: the anti-inflammatory medication that worked for me for ten years is no longer my friend, and my doc is having me Carefully Looked At before she tries me on another one, so at the moment I have exactly zero medications standing between me and the full force of the arthritis (and fibro, which it seemed to help with as well). Ergo, ow, and therefore, dishes.

Oh, well. Probably a good thing anyhow, in general. I don't mind washing dishes; I just usually am going too fast to stop and do them. Changing that is a good thing for me, what with needing to deal with stress differently and all.

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[info]bogwitch64
2007-04-04 12:35 pm UTC (link)
I'm on a 'third's the charm' plan. If the dishwasher doesn't get, say, a glass clean the first time, I give it a second chance. If the second pass doesn't dislodge the now kiln-dried gunk in the bottom of the glass, I give it a third chance. After that, I throw the glass away. /g/

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[info]buccaneer
2007-04-04 01:03 pm UTC (link)
Brilliant!

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[info]ellen_fremedon
2007-04-04 01:47 pm UTC (link)
And people boggle when I say I don't want a dishwasher.

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[info]kip_w
2007-04-04 02:37 pm UTC (link)
I wash the dishes. The dishwasher sterilizes them. I still prefer this to doing the entire job myself.

Over on rasff, we just had the discussion again, where somebody mentions having to prewash the dishes and check them afterwards, only to be assured that it's all in their mind, and the welded-on bits of former food are imaginary stigmata having more to do with their own moral shortcomings than with any dishwasher problem. Only outright defective dishwashers fail to clean even baked-on protein filth from dishes. It's true; they say so at great length, and if you insist that your dishwasher (and every dishwasher you've ever had, whether in a rented apartment or the one you had installed brand new in your house) really performs in this way, then you should just nip out and buy a new one, simple as that.

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[info]kip_w
2007-04-04 02:38 pm UTC (link)
(Note: I was a professional dishwasher in a restaurant that had no automatic equipment. I'm a perfectionist when it comes to that task, and for years we had no dishwasher at our previous house, so I'm not unacquainted with the task.)

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[info]elisem
2007-04-05 12:06 pm UTC (link)
Over on rasff, we just had the discussion again, where somebody mentions having to prewash the dishes and check them afterwards, only to be assured that it's all in their mind, and the welded-on bits of former food are imaginary stigmata having more to do with their own moral shortcomings than with any dishwasher problem.

Exactly. That's probably the part I hate the most.

According to nomenclature that I no longer remember where I got, that assumption is part of an Individual Solution approach to a systemic problem, and those kinds of situations often have all sorts of nasty things built into them. (And now I should stop before I start doing an analysis of the church in which I was raised.)

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This. Is. So. True
[info]opalsprite
2007-04-04 02:59 pm UTC (link)
We've been through 2 hand-me-down dishwashers and we kept using them because the water was hot enough to sterilize them (we thought) and because the quality was good enough most of the time. Until it wasn't.
So, we have no machine dishwasher now - just us.
And we've vowed that if we do purchase a dishwasher - it will be new. There seems to be a REASON the hand-me-downs are well.. handed-down.
:\

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[info]carbonel
2007-04-04 03:40 pm UTC (link)
This is really funny, but I agree with the recommendation to divorce your dishwasher. Or at least consider an amicable separation.

I love my dishwasher. I don't prewash unless the dishes are really full of stuff, and it gets the dishes clean and sparkly in a way that I can't achieve with handwashing.

The only problem is one of logistics as a result of living alone -- there are a few things I use every day (like my coffee mug and the measuring container for the milk for my morning latte), and those can't go in the dishwasher because I only run the dishwasher when it's full, and that takes several days to happen.

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[info]tacithydra
2007-04-04 03:51 pm UTC (link)
I think the most fantastic part of this (aside from the post itself) is that you've got people from both sides of the fence showing up in the discussion. And they're both acting very true to character.

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[info]sraun
2007-04-04 05:46 pm UTC (link)
My dish-washer deals with just about everything I care to put in it.

We do pre-rinse, but that's because the dogs get mad at us if we don't let them lick the plates. We call it 'puppy pre-rinse'.

I just went and checked - the baked-on bits of pork loin that the puppy pre-rinse hadn't gotten off the glass baking dish are all gone. And that was on the top rack.

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[info]kightp
2007-04-04 09:40 pm UTC (link)
I don't think of mine as a dish-washer so much as a dish-hider. It permits me to maintain the illusion of a tidy kitchen even when I don't feel like washing up. Especially when guests are expected.

At this, it works far better than the oven. Trust me on this.

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[info]aszanoni
2007-04-08 06:40 am UTC (link)
Agreed. I did that when house-sitting. Their d/w was adamantly against dishwashing. It was really good for dish-hiding.

The house was being shown quite a bit. I remember how the realtors didn't always give me any warning.

- Chica

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Indeed
[info]intelligentrix
2007-04-05 05:18 am UTC (link)
There is a dishwashing machine in our apartment. We've even tried using it. It is, however, a total slacker and is no longer entrusted with its original function. We find it useful as an auxiliary drying rack when we have to wash up after entertaining.

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[info]diatryma
2007-04-05 04:11 pm UTC (link)
I think, if I had to buy a dishwasher, I would go for the crazy high-end one. When my uncle and aunt moved into their new and spiffy house, they had a fancy dishwasher-- and while it may have had normal dishwasher shortcomings, it was also *silent*.
I do not want a dishwasher that grumbles and sighs while it does its job.
At the moment, I live alone. I don't do dishes well, but that's because I don't *process* them-- I don't mind a sink full of hot hot water, but it takes a week for me to run out of plates and realize that when I have washed the same individual spoon four times, perhaps I should do the entire sink. I don't think a dishwasher would help with that-- on the contrary, it would let me put off the dishes much longer.
I don't want a dishwasher so much as, I don't know, an autoclave? But I know my dishes are clean.

Another dishwasher comment: the uncle and aunt above know a family with two high-end dishwashers. They keep the dishes in one and move them to the other when they're dirty, then run the other and move the dishes back. Mostly. It was the same cost per foot as a bottom cabinet, and more effective storage space.

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[info]wordweaverlynn
2007-04-05 04:35 pm UTC (link)
Now that's a smart idea.

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[info]12stargazers
2007-04-05 05:30 pm UTC (link)
I've seen it both ways. My aunt has a pre-wash dishwasher and my mother (many years later) got a new one that was a standard, middle-of-the-road cost version. We never have to pre-wash or pre-rinse, just scrape the chunks off into the trash. It also manages to steam off carbonized gunk.

Apparently, there are some kinds of dishwasher that don't require scraping. They have a built-in garbage disposal.

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[info]dr_strych9
2007-04-05 06:15 pm UTC (link)
I have the same issue with computers, too.

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[info]rutemple
2007-04-06 05:13 am UTC (link)
Our makes a great dish drying rack...

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[info]zwol
2007-04-06 06:39 pm UTC (link)
I've had both bad and good experiences with dishwashers. I think there must be tremendous variation both in how effective any given dishwasher (not just any given model) is at getting stuff off dishes, and in what sorts of gunk the dishwasher users try to get it to cope with.

My big dishwasher-related peeve was the person who insisted that certain items were never to be run through the dishwasher even though the dishwasher did a visibly better job with them than handwashing ever achieved. (A vegetable steamer, IIRC, was the most blatant example.)

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Mine is the one with the
[info]dragonet2
2007-04-07 02:00 am UTC (link)
garbage disposal plus a water heat-booster so that things are sterilized.

Then only thing I rinse is cooked cereal dishes (but I do it when I take them down to the sink) because oatmeal and polent (the most frequent flyers) turn to farking cement if they dry. Like I said, I lurves my diswasher beyond reasoning, I don't want to kick it in the teeth.

My spouse will at least load a dishwasher, he has an aversion to hand-washing dishes (this was a bone of contention until I decided it didn't need to be, and we've been married 28 1/2 years...).

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[info]madrobins
2007-04-07 02:11 am UTC (link)
As one who has no dishwasher and has chore-aged children who balk at doing the dishes when it is their turn, I would welcome such a dysfunctional family member. Even if all it provided was the illusion that someone else was doing the dishes, it might mean a week--hell, even a month--before the Young caught on. In the interim they might be persuaded to rinse the dishes and put them in the machine, maybe even without the groans and mutterings which are our current parental lot.

Bring on the dishwashers, I say. Our family is dysfunctional, but there's always room for one more!

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[info]epi_lj
2007-04-07 07:03 pm UTC (link)
I would say that we have a middle-of-the-road dishwasher compared to what I've seen reported here. It does just about everything with no pre-rinsing. Someone was telling me just the other day that it's actually bad to pre-rinse your dishes, because the formulation of the soap depends on a certain amount of grease and foodstuff to become Magic Cleansing Goo. I don't know if that's true or not. I do know that I don't bother pre-rinsing or washing. [info]okoshun does, and if she's in the room watching me, I'll sometimes run the plate under water for a moment, but that's about it.

On the other hand, I've gotten a fairly good idea of what it won't handle, and I often do a certain amount of dishes by hand.

The think that I find most irksome about the dishwasher is that it often can't handle precisely the sort of dishes that I'd most want to hand off on an assistant. In particular, anything that's really large or has a really awkward shape is probably not going to come clean in it. So I ultimately give it the easiest dishes and do the hardest ones myself, which seems a bit silly.

But then, when one lives with someone capable of somehow using every single dish you own while preparing a meal, even when the meals are very tasty and nutritious, one appreciates the help even if it's not ideal.

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[info]aszanoni
2007-04-08 06:53 am UTC (link)
"But then, when one lives with someone capable of somehow using every single dish you own while preparing a meal, even when the meals are very tasty and nutritious, one appreciates the help even if it's not ideal."

Not all of them, but definitely can fill a d/w from cooking one such meal.

A few memorable times I've watched every bowl get used, plus several serving bowls, plus multiple pans [or pots or skillets]. Staggering.

When I go away for a few days, I come home to things with cement instead of goo on them. Sometimes the d/w can handle this, sometimes not. Luckily I am a fan of soaking things. :D I can live with scrubbing out an item or three. Scrubbing and washing a full d/w load - oh, no!

-reflects- It's not just from having carpal tunnel. That's recent. I loathe hand-washing dishes, after spending years doing them for other people.

- Chica

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